We need to law telling us exactly how to act

[Edge Guerrero]

^ LOL, Edge.

It's easy to like animals, because they are just (fair). They will treat you how you will treat them. No backstabbing, no ass-kissing, no trying to screw you over. Humans tend to do that.

I'll repeat myself and will say that greed is the reason for that. Animals don't have greed. They may not be as smart or as advanced as humans, but they are void of greed. That's why they are easier to be liked.

about the laws... "The more laws, the less justice." - Cicero.

- Actually i thin animals, insects etc, are actually very smart, they only have a diferent way to express this.
Look at the complicated extructures a beaver or a spider, ant etc can do.

I agree to a point, but not all dogs (nor humans) are created equal.

Some dogs are just plain assholes. Some are assholes in disguise.
Some are just plain crazy/neurotic. Some are not.
(A majority of them are floppy love buckets who just want to please. And be silly, and loyal, and poop factories, etc)

- Animals in general have a great variety of diferent personalitys, just like us, this is a result of how they were rised, how the personalitys desenvolve.
Some say that is in or D.N.A, the same with the animals.


Just like people.

Dogs can be prejudiced as they tend to be more sensitive to things us humans aren't. And then again, dogs can be just as stupid as humans and totally miss the bad behavior or warning signs of a POS individual as well.

- Yes, they are dominated by they feelings, they don't measure their actions and consequences like we do.

And I believe ALL living creatures have some semblance of 'greed' - it stems from our basic necessities of survival. (try taking a bone from a dog and see how 'generous' they are)

- MY actual dog Urso(Bear in english), is a very docile dog, and i can even take his food and he does nothing, my other dog that has died in 2010, Stone, was a very agressive beagle, and whem a throwed a ball at him, i cound't take her back, he would get mad for even trying to take from him.

But was a very lovable, yet very impulsive and agressive dog, he would destroy any thing that tryied to touch me.

We as humans tend to exploit and over utilize until we can no longer. BUT we also have the cognitive ability to understand and comply with boundaries that are put in place for our 'own good' and help keep us from violating some of these said boundaries. (But I digress)

Laws have their place. They are not only in place to 'tell us what to do' or 'make our lives hell' (yes there are some...) but as a whole, laws are not necessarily in place for those who 'obey them' they are a reminder for those who dont (or are ignorant to them) and serve as a recourse for those who choose to go astray of them.

- I agree, lwas exist to keep us in line.

Laws imo are no longer based on a sense of morals/ethics... they are based on capitalist liability issues

Right an wrong do not need volumes of lawbooks, it is very simple.

- I think the way that or society gets more complex, there are need for more laws, If they were simple, people would find even easy ways to contorn those laws.

I don't recognize 'the law' anymore; I didn't write them, agree to them, or vote for them. It is a set of imaginary rules that other people wrote for their own reasons of greed, fear, and control. My laws are natural laws, inherent to concepts of love and unity

- THe basic laws are here since almost the beggning of the society the way we know, they are basic ways of condute to keeps us working like a complex organism

Separating one's self from this artificial authority is a crucial step in really seeing clearly imo

- In the end, we all need any other, like the sun needs the moon.

re: dogs...

Are some dogs assholes because they are assholes? Or does it depend on the manner in which they are treated/raised?
- They have distinct personaltys like us, so in some case the way they are rised isn't gonna change how they act.

Some say 'there are no bad dogs, just bad owners'... -Could this apply to humans, and the manner in which we are treated?

- Probably, i don't know if there is a precise way to measure how we act.

Is hate and greed truly inherent in us? Or is it taught/conditioned as a result of living in a competition-based society?

- I don't know the answer to that.

- I actually didn't thought you guys would answear this thread.
It's was my emo breakdown. :mrgreen:

[Joe Mama]

you're wrong, duderino. as usual.

I have to help you feel smart and empowered every now and then don't I? ;)

Dogs can't be prejudiced. they can be mistreated and aggressive as a result of that, but not PREjudiced. They do not PRE-judge.

Bullshit. I have to immediately pull the bullshit card on this one. I think you are mixing conjecture and truth into this half truth of a truth you truth.

Dogs have an ESP of sorts that we dont always get. How many times have you seen someone's dog (or even your own) who just 'doesnt seem to like someone'? Even the 'nicest' of dogs have individuals (or even groups/types) that they dont like. (And yes, this is independent of their owner)

Plus, we see ALL OF THE TIME animals getting a 'bad name' because of incidents that are pasted all over the news. 'The family pet who never had an incident in his life, just mauled Sally Sue'. Animals have triggers that we dont understand. Saying that you 'understand' a dog and can sit and tell me that they aren't pre-disposed to judgement before they 'check it out' is hogwash.

They will treat POS as a POS if that POS treats them in a POS way. They will not kiss his ass if their career depended on that. Oh, wait, dogs don't have careers per se...

You just contradicted yourself a bit here bud.
Dogs *may* retaliate against the POS who treats them like a POS in a POS way - but 9 times out of 10 they will be submissive. In a doggie dog sort of way, a dogs 'career' is to 'please thine master'.

Dogs can't be assholes. if you treat a dog kindly, it'll be kind to you, always, even if that dog was beaten and mistreated in the past. IMHO, that's fair, that's just

As much as I would love to agree with you, there are lots of families with relatives that were mauled who would say otherwise. This 'they will always be kind' mentality is what gets people hurt.

Animals, especially wild animals, can't be greedy. They do not kill more prey that they can eat. They do NOT "save" so much food that it gets spoiled, and they throw it out later.

Wrong again... The Wolverine is a classic example of a selfish animal. Once it has eaten, it sprays the carcass so nothing else can eat after it.

About laws.

Any law is a limit, no matter how you put it. "Do not kill". But what if the fucker deserves to be killed? What if he should be killed? What if killing the fucker is good for human kind? What if killing the fucker is just? Simply JUST?

That is why abundance of laws is NOT a guarantee of justice. And lawyers thrive on abundance of laws, just like all other parasitic creatures. Laws create parasites, because by putting a limit on something, laws take the balance out of the system.

p.s. A certain minimum of rules should exist, absolutely. But it's a historical observance, laws are created by the ruling class to protect its riches from others. ALWAYS.

The fewer and simpler the rules/laws = the easier it is to achieve justice.

p.s. I'm not recommending we should go around killing fuckers, even if they deserve it, but we should strive for justice.

Once again I do not disagree with you completely, but looking at a law as only a limit or restriction is WAY too short sighted IMO. (Again) Do I think there are laws that are fucked and unnecessary? Of course, but laws are also in place to protect ME from when it comes time to face the music for 'breaking the said law' in the course of protecting myself from you.

[Edge Guerrero]

"Taking a bone from a dog" has nothing to do with generosity, it's plain robbery.

This is a good insight

It just comes down to basic right and wrong.

Its amazing how powerful the basic 'golden rule' concept is. We really don't need laws, we only need simple compassion and the ability to put ourselves in another's shoes.

Its really not that hard

- LIke Bill and Ted saying:

- Be coll with any other.(Or something like this)

[Envy337]

re: dogs...

Are some dogs assholes because they are assholes? Or does it depend on the manner in which they are treated/raised?

Some say 'there are no bad dogs, just bad owners'... -Could this apply to humans, and the manner in which we are treated?

Is hate and greed truly inherent in us? Or is it taught/conditioned as a result of living in a competition-based society?

Good thought provoking questions.

The parallel between us and dogs is very similar. If conditioned or taught, dogs (and humans) can have a dominant emotion. Breed that same trait over many generations and it becomes instinctual. Dogs are the perfect example of this, you have herders, hunters, trackers, guardians, etc. I'm experiencing this first hand, I bought a border collie (my homie Marlo) back in January. They are bred to be herders (sheep and cattle) and are extremely smart. Just as advertised, Marlo is a smart dog and he has an instinct to herd. I've taken him to many different dog parks and certain breeds do tend to be "assholes". I've noticed that most huskies tend to bully other dogs, some have what i would consider good & responsible owners. So it's a combination of the dominant train in the genes and how they are raised. Same as us, the proof is in everyday life.

Now think about that logic being applied to humans, its a fighting thought.

[Joe Mama]

Now think about that logic being applied to humans, its a fighting thought.

Frightening doesnt even begin to encompass this.

We know much less about the human nature much less the lower food chain ranking organisms.

We are a scary creature.

[Masato]

Even more is when you research people who have actually invested an interest in the study of how to shape public conditioning... (Edward Bernays, Leo Strauss, etc) - how much of who we are/how we think is a natural product of our own evolution, and how much has been engineered by others covertly over the decades?

[fungi]

^ LOL, Edge.

They may not be as smart or as advanced as humans, but they are void of greed.

- Actually i thin animals, insects etc, are actually very smart, they only have a diferent way to express this.
Look at the complicated extructures a beaver or a spider, ant etc can do.

In NO way I'm saying that animals are not smart. They may be not as smart/advanced as humans, but they are smart.

Bullshit. I have to immediately pull the bullshit card on this one. I think you are mixing conjecture and truth into this half truth of a truth you truth.

Dogs have an ESP of sorts that we dont always get. How many times have you seen someone's dog (or even your own) who just 'doesnt seem to like someone'? Even the 'nicest' of dogs have individuals (or even groups/types) that they dont like. (And yes, this is independent of their owner)

Dogs react to persons who are, very often, afraid of dogs / do not like dogs. Dogs react, they do not pre-judge. They "feel" that fear or that dislike. They just respond in similar fashion.

Dogs also always "feel" a dog lover and rarily attack one. That feeling may come from a friendly tone in human-dog-lover's voice, a gentle pat on the head, etc. I am never attacked by dogs, even "scary" ones, because I approach them without fear, and with peaceful intentions. Dogs feel it and treat me in kind.

Plus, we see ALL OF THE TIME animals getting a 'bad name' because of incidents that are pasted all over the news. 'The family pet who never had an incident in his life, just mauled Sally Sue'.

"Family pet mauled Sally Sue"...
I say family pet was provoked by a slap or something like that from Sally Sue. The parents of Sally Sue will never admit that they never taught Sally Sue to never hit a dog. It's parental negligence in its truest form, especially when owning a breed of dog that can maul... Also proper training for such a breed is of utmost importance, which is frequently ignored. And leaving a little kid with such a breed alone...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMIhL63KPxw

In this video the Mom tells the boy to hit the cat. I guess something like happened in case of Sally Sue.

Animals have triggers that we dont understand. Saying that you 'understand' a dog and can sit and tell me that they aren't pre-disposed to judgement before they 'check it out' is hogwash.

Physical aggression is a trigger. Fear is a trigger. Dislike (it shows) is a trigger. What's not to understand?..

They will treat POS as a POS if that POS treats them in a POS way. They will not kiss his ass if their career depended on that. Oh, wait, dogs don't have careers per se...

You just contradicted yourself a bit here bud.
Dogs *may* retaliate against the POS who treats them like a POS in a POS way - but 9 times out of 10 they will be submissive. In a doggie dog sort of way, a dogs 'career' is to 'please thine master'.

What's the contradiction there? Hit a dog, it'll "hit" you back. Logic.

And did you just call all dogs "submissive bitches"? You seem to have a problem with dogs. Why? Did one bite you when you were little?

As much as I would love to agree with you, there are lots of families with relatives that were mauled who would say otherwise. This 'they will always be kind' mentality is what gets people hurt.

Addressed above.

Animals, especially wild animals, can't be greedy. They do not kill more prey that they can eat. They do NOT "save" so much food that it gets spoiled, and they throw it out later.

Wrong again... The Wolverine is a classic example of a selfish animal. Once it has eaten, it sprays the carcass so nothing else can eat after it.

Wolverines eat the prey as much as they can, and spray it with musk, and bury it, and come back later to eat more and finish it. They spray it to save it from other animals. Selfish? Yes. Greedy? No.

Greedy is killing one prey, spraying it, burying it without eating, and then killing more prey, just for the sake of HAVING it.

Selfish is natural for survival, greedy is not. Do not confuse those terms.

duderino, you're just wrong.

Breed that same trait over many generations and it becomes instinctual. Dogs are the perfect example of this, you have herders, hunters, trackers, guardians, etc. I'm experiencing this first hand, I bought a border collie (my homie Marlo) back in January. They are bred to be herders (sheep and cattle) and are extremely smart. Just as advertised, Marlo is a smart dog and he has an instinct to herd.

Some physical attributes (strength, stamina, acute sense of smell, etc) can be bred. Instinct to be bred? WOAH... Educate me on that please.

I've taken him to many different dog parks and certain breeds do tend to be "assholes". I've noticed that most huskies tend to bully other dogs, some have what i would consider good & responsible owners.

Are you saying that "being good or bad" can be achieved by breeding?

I've noticed different things. A certain type of people tend to adopt certain types of dog breeds. Rappers seem to favor pitbulls, and they train them to be fighting dogs. "It-girls" seem to favor "It-dogs" like chihuahuas or other pocket dogs, and they pamper them (haircuts, manicure, etc.) accordingly, and those dogs become just like "It-girls". Some people like pugs, and those can be grouped into a certain category, usually softies.

Maybe a certain type of people also likes a huskie and by being certain type of people they condition their dogs to be bullies? What you think of them as "good and responsible owners" is just your perceived opinion.

It's simple, why does a "certain type" of kids always tend to be bullies in school? Why? Those who are usually abused at home.

So it's a combination of the dominant train in the genes and how they are raised. Same as us, the proof is in everyday life.

"Dominant trait in the genes". Do genes determine if one is "good" or an "asshole"?

Dude, that's like WOAH!!!!!!!!!!!
Sci-fi shit. In "Doom" the movie, the scientist chick says that 10-15% of DNA is soul, and it determines if one is good or evil. But so far, let's leave it to sci-fi.

On that, I am not sure 100%. We do not know for sure if DNA does carry an imprint of some moral information. I'll admit that much.

But I'll say again, dogs can't be assholes. They can be trained/conditioned to act like assholes, but with proper treatment, and after breaking the initial trust barrier, "asshole-trained' dogs (and other animals) will be kind of treated kindly.


p.s. Multi-quoting is not easy.

[fungi]

Even more is when you research people who have actually invested an interest in the study of how to shape public conditioning... (Edward Bernays, Leo Strauss, etc) - how much of who we are/how we think is a natural product of our own evolution, and how much has been engineered by others covertly over the decades?

Oh, Masato, "public conditioning" is an intriguing subject.
Check out "Miglram experiment" and "Stanford prison experiment". I'm sure you have heard of those.
It's so easy to engineer/manipulate public opinion and values. And politicians and corporations have been taking advantage of that for centuries.

[Joe Mama]

"Family pet mauled Sally Sue"...
I say family pet was provoked by a slap or something like that from Sally Sue. The parents of Sally Sue will never admit that they never taught Sally Sue to never hit a dog. It's parental negligence in its truest form, especially when owning a breed of dog that can maul...

Im no expert on fried chicken, but if I recall skimming the story correctly, the big incident where the girl was mauled by the pitbulls was unprovoked. (in fact THEY sought her out)

What about that funny meme where the family cat saved the toddler from the dog trying to attack him in HIS OWN YARD?

Also proper training for such a breed is of utmost importance, which is frequently ignored. And leaving a little kid with such a breed alone...

Here you go... You state it yourself - Fundamentally the animal has assholeistic tendencies and must be broken of them (or trained to act accordingly)


Look, I will agree with you that more times than not it is the responsibility of the OWNER to ensure that his animal is domesticated to the point as to where it doesnt do 'fucked up shit'. But to say that dogs dont have some sort of level of 'free will' and the cognitive ability to do fucked up things (whether instinctive or not) is absurd.

Maybe my term of calling a dog 'asshole' might not have been the most appropriate... How about 'wild'?


Oh, and the irony that I just noticed -
It has been implied that a set of 'guidelines/rules/training' needs to be implemented to ensure the safety of all when it comes to (for the sake of discussion - dogs)

Isnt that what laws are in a nutshell?

Boundaries/Stipulations that are in place to mould/foster (or deter) from a specific behavior?

[Envy337]

Are you saying that "being good or bad" can be achieved by breeding?

I believe so, I mean dogs came from domesticated wolfs 30,000+ years ago. Over that span of time, dogs are now naturally loyal. Certain breeds were bred to have a natural aggression, pitbulls for example. Its a combination of both genetics and behavior conditioning.

I've noticed different things. A certain type of people tend to adopt certain types of dog breeds. Rappers seem to favor pitbulls, and they train them to be fighting dogs. "It-girls" seem to favor "It-dogs" like chihuahuas or other pocket dogs, and they pamper them (haircuts, manicure, etc.) accordingly, and those dogs become just like "It-girls". Some people like pugs, and those can be grouped into a certain category, usually softies.

Good assessment, matching behaviors.

Maybe a certain type of people also likes a huskie and by being certain type of people they condition their dogs to be bullies? What you think of them as "good and responsible owners" is just your perceived opinion.

You might be right, my opinion was based on just a small sample of huskies & owners. I haven't researched huskies so im just going by what i saw.

It's simple, why does a "certain type" of kids always tend to be bullies in school? Why? Those who are usually abused at home.

I disagree, while parenting does have a major impact on a child becoming a bully or not, some of it is instinctual. It was not learned, it just comes naturally. Bullies can come from good homes.

Dude, that's like WOAH!!!!!!!!!!!
Sci-fi shit. In "Doom" the movie, the scientist chick says that 10-15% of DNA is soul, and it determines if one is good or evil. But so far, let's leave it to sci-fi.


On that, I am not sure 100%. We do not know for sure if DNA does carry an imprint of some moral information. I'll admit that much.

It's not sci-fi if you think about it. The genetic code has to carry morality, the good, bad and everything in between. When we were conceived, there must have countless other versions that could have been. Different gender, physical attributes, mental capacity, morality, every other behavior or feeling that is. So simply put, its predetermined to have a tendency to be good or bad.