Evolution?

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ClintBarton
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Evolution?

Postby ClintBarton » Wed May 16, 2018 9:58 am

Hello,

The professor asked us about our personal background and knowledge about the theory of evolution. So I stated what we in America have been taught from elementary to high school; the theory of natural selection, bottleneck poplulation, ect. But I remember a friend telling me,when she attended kakta, that Sikhism does not believe in the theory of evolution. Therefore, I wanted to know what does Guruji, Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, say about evolution? In kirtan, the phrase "ek noor te sab jag upja" arises, but can someone please extend my knowlegde on this topic. Are there incidents that disprove this theory?

Please help.

I didn't find the right solution from the Internet.

References:-
http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewt ... 46&start=0
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Thanks

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Masato
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Postby Masato » Thu May 17, 2018 1:36 pm

Hey ClintBarton, welcome

I won't be posting much for a while, am stuck in a brutal work project/deadline till next week

I don't know much about Sikhism, would be curious to learn more especially in this context.

I will admit, the more I learn and reflect om things the more I feel that evolution was somewhat artifically imposed/pushed. I am really starting to think that some great history or knowledge or ourselves has been erased and re-written, with the evolution propaganda being a major part of this.

That doesn't mean I believe the earth was made in 7 days or anything, lol but I am suspicious enough to listen to anyone who says they they have some alternative explanations

Thanks for sharing. Hope you stick around, we're slowly gathering some interesting posters. Don't leave it up to me to keep the place going :D I'll be pretty absent for most of time till Tuesday

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shankara
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Postby shankara » Fri May 18, 2018 5:59 pm

I don't know much about Sikhism either, though I had a very good time reading a biography of Guru Govind Singh.

My take on evolution is that it's a good explanation for the existence of extremely complex biological machines but can't properly explain the existence of the spark of consciousness within them.

Of course you could say that everything is conscious but then from where comes the individuality of consciousness, why isn't it just some kind of hive-mind? There are all sorts of theories actually, none of which are satisfying explanations.

Nonetheless for the masses, who no longer have the comfort of believing in some all-knowing church or whatever, the theory of evolution is useful... after all they have to have some explanation of where we came from, they have to believe in something.

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Masato
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Postby Masato » Fri May 18, 2018 6:22 pm

I don't find evolution a good explanation for complex biological machines at all...

As far as I understand the theory, small evolutionary changes come from adaptive selection/survival of the fittest etc. But BIG changes come from... - mutation?

I am no expert but so far this is what I've found. That RANDOMLY mutated cells suddenly formed into a more complex form. I've heard it likened to of you drop something on the floor, and expect the pieces to assemble into something better. Or throw paint at a canvas randomly until one day you will get lucky and the paint will land as a Rembrandt. They say its possible if you give it millions of years, eventually it happen but its never been observed or demonstrated and I find this to be quite ridiculous. Please someone correct me if I have this wrong.

For example; how does a functioning bird wing SLOWLY evolve into a functioning wing? What good is the shape of feathers or skeletal structure if it doesn't fly? Where did that magical moment come where all of a sudden it was able to function as a wing? How could it be explained that almost-working wings but not quite working wings had previously evolved into such a structure?

In the same way, how could a working eyeball evolve from beings with non-working eyeballs? How can natural selection start building this process of developing an eyeball? A brain?

Its all so complex that for me, to explain it all came from some primordial slime and basically accidentally, blindly, by freak random mutations over billions of years without intent is just a big slap in the face of the marvel of what we see and are.

I don't offer any concrete alternatives, but I find the term 'Intelligent Design' to be compelling as long as you don't attach it to any specific biblical interpretation.

For sure consciousness has tons to do with it. Ironically, the one major element of our existence that modern science has no clue how to approach, or even measure.

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Masato
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Postby Masato » Fri May 18, 2018 6:30 pm

The way evolution was pushed, so fervently...

The social and blood relations that Darwin was connected to... the proven hoaxes of 'missing link' bones etc coming from the Jesuits (good stories for those who have not heard em), and the frankly irresponsible leap of assumption of taking this theory and applying it as absolute dogma in the schools and universities etc ...

I dunno it all just smells suspicious. Not the natural 'evolution' of a real collective understanding of ourselves as I would expect, but sometimes feels like a very top-down rigorously imposed new belief system with massive ramifications for our own self view and self-realization.

Its quite a crazy theory really that is supposed to explain our entire reality and existence here but somehow it is set it stone and taught as fact and we are conditioned to ridicule and laugh at anyone who may even dare to think outside this box.

I hate to say it but it smells of the same propaganda sometimes.

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shankara
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Postby shankara » Sat May 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Yeah interesting, I never really considered whether it all actually fitted together as a theory because for me the whole issue of consciousness was enough for me to be sure enough in my disbelief.

What the real story is I don't know (extra-terrestrial seeding perhaps, or the Hindu theory of descendants of Manu...?) though I'm pretty convinced by this whole business about Atlantis and Lemuria, cyclical time.

It's definitely no coincidence that in our capitalist society the theory of evolution which is widely believed is the one of competition. The anarchist prince Kropotkin wrote a book called "Mutual Aid" which suggested that the whole process of evolution actually revolved around members of species having solidarity with each other... This isn't taught in schools either.

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Masato
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Postby Masato » Sun May 20, 2018 6:35 pm

shankara wrote:It's definitely no coincidence that in our capitalist society the theory of evolution which is widely believed is the one of competition.


Interesting, agreed theory of evolution definitely puts us in a true competitive, capitalistic, 'me'-centered, & survivalist mindset. I often think of the trend of modern reality-TV shows where the premise of all of them is to cheat and kill off your peers in order to be the last one standing where you win a prize. Lots of modern entertainment revolves around this premise.

Its also interesting to see what other sorts of mindsets become justified under such a premise, for instance eugenics or racial superiority theories all of a sudden could be seen as quite 'natural' and worth pursuing in the name of Evolution.

Ironic how today's trends of equality, globalization, total inclusiveness etc might be, according to the theory of evolution, actually contrary to what makes us 'evolve'! lol

shankara wrote:The anarchist prince Kropotkin wrote a book called "Mutual Aid" which suggested that the whole process of evolution actually revolved around members of species having solidarity with each other... This isn't taught in schools either.


Never heard of him. Will go look it up. I don't follow but it sounds intriguing...

Man you bringing some good stuff, shankara! thank you, hope you stick around

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Redneck
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Postby Redneck » Wed May 23, 2018 10:06 am

Evolution within a species is logical and can be seen throughout nature. Evolution from a leech to a fish to a lizard to a monkey to a human, is complete bullshit.

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shankara
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Postby shankara » Fri May 25, 2018 2:41 pm

Redneck wrote:Evolution within a species is logical and can be seen throughout nature. Evolution from a leech to a fish to a lizard to a monkey to a human, is complete bullshit.


Yeah one of my gurus said exactly the same thing. I've been thinking about this whole business about how a non-working wing would evolve to become a working wing and it really doesn't seem possible - the non-working wings would be no survival advantage and so there would be no reason for them to develop in the first place.

I suppose many of the evolutionists have an atheistic agenda and so they want to assure us that everything happened by some chance or accident... even though in doing so they are actually demanding a lot more faith than having faith in God demands. They are saying "oh this is incomprehensible to science now but it will become comprehensible" (their atheistic form of divine revelation being the new theories of science). Having faith in some Divinity merely requires us to see and appreciate our existence as conscious living entities and the wondrous magnificence of Mother Nature.

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Masato
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Postby Masato » Mon May 28, 2018 1:08 pm

shankara wrote:
Redneck wrote:Evolution within a species is logical and can be seen throughout nature. Evolution from a leech to a fish to a lizard to a monkey to a human, is complete bullshit.


Yeah one of my gurus said exactly the same thing. I've been thinking about this whole business about how a non-working wing would evolve to become a working wing and it really doesn't seem possible - the non-working wings would be no survival advantage and so there would be no reason for them to develop in the first place. .


Exactly! well said

Seriously, I would love to hear a pro-evolutionist explain what good is an almost-functioning (but not yet functioning) wing or eyeball, or how it can develop into a fully functioning wing or eyeball, even over millions of years, without knowing where its going. How would such an evolution even get started? (ie; how would evolution even explain how you would even get an ALMOST-functioning set of wings, or eyeball?)

It makes zero sense. In fact it seems quite absurd.

I really don't know how the theory gained so much acceptance and credibility, other than sheer propaganda and human tendency to believe perceived authority.

I almost want to find someone who backs the theory and has studied the explanations to ask them.


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