DID SAVATE DEVELOP INDEPENDENTLY FROM THE ASIAN MARTIAL ARTS?

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dass
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DID SAVATE DEVELOP INDEPENDENTLY FROM THE ASIAN MARTIAL ARTS?

Postby dass » Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:33 am

And why no other Western countries develop their own styles aside from fistic boxing?

Why is most Western cultures was fighting with the feet dirty?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9OswjKQVoo

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Luigi
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Postby Luigi » Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:35 am

I investigated this on another forum years ago. Basically there are two things you need to know:

1. kicking is a fairly natural and intuitive way of hurting someone and was also allowed in the older less restricted rules of English boxing, Greek Pankration, African fighting systems, and probably everywhere even if its poorly documented pretty much everywhere.

2. Despite point 1, Savate started popping up in historical references right after French Jesuits launched missions into SEA, which likely is not a coincidence.

Due to lack of evidence, anything beyond this is just speculation.
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Postby Som-Pong » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:28 am

Muay Boran

dass
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Postby dass » Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:29 pm

My thinking is that French sailors, from the Marseille region, must've Vietnamese martial Arts when they colonized that country in the 1800s. There was a mixing of ideas and I don't doubt there was a form of French foot fighting before the sailors and Vietnam influences.

But I find that the rest of the West didn't catch onto these effective foot fighting styles until much later. I'd like to find out why much of the West though foot fighting with unsportmanslike and consider dirty?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate

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Luigi
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Postby Luigi » Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:07 am

IIRC the missions started in the 1700s even.

Also remember in the West martial arts were devoted to using weapons, anything unarmed was circusfare to make money. In this environment standardization and simplification helps the audience understand it and avoids pearl clutching. This drive towards standardization is how the myriad of European wrestling styles all got displaced but the standardized rules we call olympic freestyle. Boxing is no different, no doubt each region had their own rules with different degrees of leniency towards clinch, throws, and indeed kicks. Remember, shoes and boot are often not banned in these less regulated environments.
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Postby Edge Guerrero » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:05 pm

dass wrote:And why no other Western countries develop their own styles aside from fistic boxing?

Why is most Western cultures was fighting with the feet dirty?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9OswjKQVoo


- Back when i was a little kid in the 90's, i remember a kid that beat the other kids using kicks. The older kids used to say he was a coward and cheater. I've read older-men saying that too.

When I joined Sherdog, a american sherdogger said that when he was a kid, kicking was told to be low coward weapon. I got surprised because i thought It's was only here where i live, thats was frowned upon.

I presume the other nations used basic kicking, like chinese and japanese martial arts used till 1900. The development we see in kicking was more from 1940\50 . You can see karate katas rarelly had any high kicks. But with the advent of Shotokan Karate and taekwondo, the fact people could now dedicate their time to those sports, helpeld developing kicking to what we see today.
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Edge Guerrero
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Postby Edge Guerrero » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:12 pm

Luigi wrote:IIRC the missions started in the 1700s even.

Also remember in the West martial arts were devoted to using weapons, anything unarmed was circusfare to make money. In this environment standardization and simplification helps the audience understand it and avoids pearl clutching. This drive towards standardization is how the myriad of European wrestling styles all got displaced but the standardized rules we call olympic freestyle. Boxing is no different, no doubt each region had their own rules with different degrees of leniency towards clinch, throws, and indeed kicks. Remember, shoes and boot are often not banned in these less regulated environments.


- Every region or culture had a type of wrestling that the match ended by pinning.
Kicking is farly unnatural i think. Learning the mechanics would require more time. Since people had a short life span, and the athletic prime was short too, i presume that influenced.

Even pro-wrestling was far diferent than today. You would rarelly see kicks.

And asians in general preserve their documented culture more.
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Edge Guerrero
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Postby Edge Guerrero » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:14 pm

dass wrote:My thinking is that French sailors, from the Marseille region, must've Vietnamese martial Arts when they colonized that country in the 1800s. There was a mixing of ideas and I don't doubt there was a form of French foot fighting before the sailors and Vietnam influences.

But I find that the rest of the West didn't catch onto these effective foot fighting styles until much later. I'd like to find out why much of the West though foot fighting with unsportmanslike and consider dirty?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate


- I agree with that. English, europeans where there "first" in mass. So they implanted theyr cultural thinking. Probably even xenofobic way to think their system was superior. Boxing became popular first, some people call the noble art, since the elites where in love with boxing, and they where far more sedentary back them, punching looked simple to them.
They probably looked those boxers, and thought they could do the same, if they wanted.
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Postby theraskal » Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:02 pm

Karate Historian entertaining hypothesis that SAVATE influenced Modern Karate:


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Edge Guerrero
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Postby Edge Guerrero » Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:46 pm

- Theres used to be a savate guy in Rio de janeiro, i think Minotauro brough him here to teach at team Nogueira
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