CCPs persecution of Turkic peoples

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Luigi
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Re: CCPs persecution of Turkic peoples

Postby Luigi » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:48 am

I watched that video posted in this thread by Kevork Almassian called "The truth about Xinjiang and the Uygur problem" but he doesnt seem to actually claim the persecution doesnt exist, he seems to just be saying that U.S. and Turkey are using Uyghurs as pawns in Syria and other international matters. Thats the funny thing though, this thread isnt actually about how the CIA and Turkey funded terrorists who happened to be Uyghur, I made this thread to discuss the brutal persecution of Turkic groups living in Turkestan, which China calls Xinjiang. If I was a Kazakh kid living in Xinjiang watching my community be put into camps for offenses as innocuous as studying Arabic, I dont think I'd care what a terrorist on the other side of the world is doing and I'd probably be confused by people on the internet using it as a way to discredit the legitimacy of the suffering being inflicted on my community. If anything I would probably be hoping the U.S. and Turkey and all the military industrial complex really are arming and funding Uyghur terrorist militias, because if someone put my family in a camp for studying Arabic I would gladly take that person and brutally behead them while singing nasheed and put it all on liveleak. It would be a perfectly deserved fate.

I did take issue with one part of Kevork's video which was that he presented the Turkic tribes as moving east into China from central Asia, but actually around 1500 years ago when we first have records of Turkic peoples they are already living in the inner Asian steppelands like Xinjiang unlike the Han who were then limited to the eastern and southern parts of modern day China. He presented it as essentially being the Eastern equivalent of Turks migrating into Anatolia which is a pretty egregious mistake assuming it wasnt an intentional spin.

He seems like he is generally a pretty reasonable guy though, and I thought he made some good sense in this video talking about the Kurdish controlling the Al-Jazira region in Syria despite being only a minority of the population and persecuting neighbourhoods that are loyalists to Asad:



An interesting excerpt: "Its some sort of an ethnic cleansing without really killing or slaughtering these people, but when you deprive them of food, medicine, water, etc. you are telling them to leave, so in my opinion ethnic cleansing is not only when you ethnically cleanse people as the Ottomans did, but also through deportations or forcing them to resettle in other areas."

A pretty bold take, Im not so sure I'd go that far myself, but at the very least I'd be pretty surprised if he turned around and "debunked" the Uyghur genocide.
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Postby Megaterio Llamas » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:56 am

Luigi wrote:I watched that video posted in this thread by Kevork Almassian called "The truth about Xinjiang and the Uygur problem" but he doesnt seem to actually claim the persecution doesnt exist, he seems to just be saying that U.S. and Turkey are using Uyghurs as pawns in Syria and other international matters. Thats the funny thing though, this thread isnt actually about how the CIA and Turkey funded terrorists who happened to be Uyghur, I made this thread to discuss the brutal persecution of Turkic groups living in Turkestan, which China calls Xinjiang. If I was a Kazakh kid living in Xinjiang watching my community be put into camps for offenses as innocuous as studying Arabic, I dont think I'd care what a terrorist on the other side of the world is doing and I'd probably be confused by people on the internet using it as a way to discredit the legitimacy of the suffering being inflicted on my community. If anything I would probably be hoping the U.S. and Turkey and all the military industrial complex really are arming and funding Uyghur terrorist militias, because if someone put my family in a camp for studying Arabic I would gladly take that person and brutally behead them while singing nasheed and put it all on liveleak. It would be a perfectly deserved fate.

I did take issue with one part of Kevork's video which was that he presented the Turkic tribes as moving east into China from central Asia, but actually around 1500 years ago when we first have records of Turkic peoples they are already living in the inner Asian steppelands like Xinjiang unlike the Han who were then limited to the eastern and southern parts of modern day China. He presented it as essentially being the Eastern equivalent of Turks migrating into Anatolia which is a pretty egregious mistake assuming it wasnt an intentional spin.

He seems like he is generally a pretty reasonable guy though, and I thought he made some good sense in this video talking about the Kurdish controlling the Al-Jazira region in Syria despite being only a minority of the population and persecuting neighbourhoods that are loyalists to Asad:



An interesting excerpt: "Its some sort of an ethnic cleansing without really killing or slaughtering these people, but when you deprive them of food, medicine, water, etc. you are telling them to leave, so in my opinion ethnic cleansing is not only when you ethnically cleanse people as the Ottomans did, but also through deportations or forcing them to resettle in other areas."

A pretty bold take, Im not so sure I'd go that far myself, but at the very least I'd be pretty surprised if he turned around and "debunked" the Uyghur genocide.


Kevork is actually an expert on Syria, not China. If you're ready and willing to hear the Uyghur genocide narrative debunked listen to Ajit Singh in the final video I posted. Apparently, according to Singh, most of what we're reading in Western media about the situation in Xinjiang traces back to a report by a US NGO that interviewed eight people, and to a German Christian Zionist figure called Adrian Zenz who cites reports from a Uyghur nationalist organization in Turkey. and this information has then been funneled through mainstream sources like the NY Times out into the public conversation. No one as of yet has presented real evidence that anything like a 'Uyghur genocide' is going on, as far as I can tell it's all US letter agency propaganda.

FWIW I do believe there is a crackdown against Islamist terrorism going on in Xingjiang personally but this 'Uyghur genocide' seems to be the State Department pushing false narrative through friendly ngos. This whole thing reeks of Saddam Hussein incubator babies style invasion pretext talk from the CIA. I smelled it in 2002 and I smell it again now.

Actually I've had a look back through this thread and I'm repeating myself. You guys believe what you will.
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Postby Megaterio Llamas » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:56 am

Leaving Uighurs aside, but while I'm on the topic.

Did you guys know The New CIA is woke?

Check it out friends ;)








Final Note.

China and the Uyghurs. Listen to the second half of this video starting at 127:00.

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Postby Luigi » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:19 pm

Megaterio Llamas wrote:
Luigi wrote:I watched that video posted in this thread by Kevork Almassian called "The truth about Xinjiang and the Uygur problem" but he doesnt seem to actually claim the persecution doesnt exist, he seems to just be saying that U.S. and Turkey are using Uyghurs as pawns in Syria and other international matters. Thats the funny thing though, this thread isnt actually about how the CIA and Turkey funded terrorists who happened to be Uyghur, I made this thread to discuss the brutal persecution of Turkic groups living in Turkestan, which China calls Xinjiang. If I was a Kazakh kid living in Xinjiang watching my community be put into camps for offenses as innocuous as studying Arabic, I dont think I'd care what a terrorist on the other side of the world is doing and I'd probably be confused by people on the internet using it as a way to discredit the legitimacy of the suffering being inflicted on my community. If anything I would probably be hoping the U.S. and Turkey and all the military industrial complex really are arming and funding Uyghur terrorist militias, because if someone put my family in a camp for studying Arabic I would gladly take that person and brutally behead them while singing nasheed and put it all on liveleak. It would be a perfectly deserved fate.

I did take issue with one part of Kevork's video which was that he presented the Turkic tribes as moving east into China from central Asia, but actually around 1500 years ago when we first have records of Turkic peoples they are already living in the inner Asian steppelands like Xinjiang unlike the Han who were then limited to the eastern and southern parts of modern day China. He presented it as essentially being the Eastern equivalent of Turks migrating into Anatolia which is a pretty egregious mistake assuming it wasnt an intentional spin.

He seems like he is generally a pretty reasonable guy though, and I thought he made some good sense in this video talking about the Kurdish controlling the Al-Jazira region in Syria despite being only a minority of the population and persecuting neighbourhoods that are loyalists to Asad:



An interesting excerpt: "Its some sort of an ethnic cleansing without really killing or slaughtering these people, but when you deprive them of food, medicine, water, etc. you are telling them to leave, so in my opinion ethnic cleansing is not only when you ethnically cleanse people as the Ottomans did, but also through deportations or forcing them to resettle in other areas."

A pretty bold take, Im not so sure I'd go that far myself, but at the very least I'd be pretty surprised if he turned around and "debunked" the Uyghur genocide.


Kevork is actually an expert on Syria, not China. If you're ready and willing to hear the Uyghur genocide narrative debunked listen to Ajit Singh in the final video I posted. Apparently, according to Singh, most of what we're reading in Western media about the situation in Xinjiang traces back to a report by a US NGO that interviewed eight people, and to a German Christian Zionist figure called Adrian Zenz who cites reports from a Uyghur nationalist organization in Turkey. and this information has then been funneled through mainstream sources like the NY Times out into the public conversation. No one as of yet has presented real evidence that anything like a 'Uyghur genocide' is going on, as far as I can tell it's all US letter agency propaganda.

FWIW I do believe there is a crackdown against Islamist terrorism going on in Xingjiang personally but this 'Uyghur genocide' seems to be the State Department pushing false narrative through friendly ngos. This whole thing reeks of Saddam Hussein incubator babies style invasion pretext talk from the CIA. I smelled it in 2002 and I smell it again now.

Actually I've had a look back through this thread and I'm repeating myself. You guys believe what you will.

Putting the semantics side of things aside it seems pretty clear the Chinese gov is pushing hard for cultural conformity with harsh repercussions for resistance. No idea what info the MSM is getting from where but in that VICE doc that everyone has seen you get two girls walking around with a camera and they get plenty of evidence for large numbers of Uyghurs being arrested and marched in columns into these large scale detention centres that didnt exist a few years ago. We know in these centres they are pushing for high levels of Mandarin skills and pushing pro-communist anti-Islam messaging despite the overwhelming majority being Muslim. In the West when we conceptualize a terrorist crackdown one would envision some undercover cops monitoring an extremist group for a while, gathering incriminating evidence, and then launching a raid on the few they could pin something on. This is clearly something very distinct from what is happening in Xinjiang. Even if it was actually true though that all those people including the large amounts of women are all terrorists intent on some crazy suicide vest mission, that still wouldnt justify taking their children to state-run propaganda camps. If their intent was actually just stopping terrorism they would do what any normal place would do and give custody of the children to the next available relative, but instead they disappear into a government camp because pretty clearly this is an attempt to attack the Uyghur cultural prominence in Xinjiang.
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Postby Megaterio Llamas » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:31 pm

Luigi wrote:
Megaterio Llamas wrote:
Luigi wrote:I watched that video posted in this thread by Kevork Almassian called "The truth about Xinjiang and the Uygur problem" but he doesnt seem to actually claim the persecution doesnt exist, he seems to just be saying that U.S. and Turkey are using Uyghurs as pawns in Syria and other international matters. Thats the funny thing though, this thread isnt actually about how the CIA and Turkey funded terrorists who happened to be Uyghur, I made this thread to discuss the brutal persecution of Turkic groups living in Turkestan, which China calls Xinjiang. If I was a Kazakh kid living in Xinjiang watching my community be put into camps for offenses as innocuous as studying Arabic, I dont think I'd care what a terrorist on the other side of the world is doing and I'd probably be confused by people on the internet using it as a way to discredit the legitimacy of the suffering being inflicted on my community. If anything I would probably be hoping the U.S. and Turkey and all the military industrial complex really are arming and funding Uyghur terrorist militias, because if someone put my family in a camp for studying Arabic I would gladly take that person and brutally behead them while singing nasheed and put it all on liveleak. It would be a perfectly deserved fate.

I did take issue with one part of Kevork's video which was that he presented the Turkic tribes as moving east into China from central Asia, but actually around 1500 years ago when we first have records of Turkic peoples they are already living in the inner Asian steppelands like Xinjiang unlike the Han who were then limited to the eastern and southern parts of modern day China. He presented it as essentially being the Eastern equivalent of Turks migrating into Anatolia which is a pretty egregious mistake assuming it wasnt an intentional spin.

He seems like he is generally a pretty reasonable guy though, and I thought he made some good sense in this video talking about the Kurdish controlling the Al-Jazira region in Syria despite being only a minority of the population and persecuting neighbourhoods that are loyalists to Asad:



An interesting excerpt: "Its some sort of an ethnic cleansing without really killing or slaughtering these people, but when you deprive them of food, medicine, water, etc. you are telling them to leave, so in my opinion ethnic cleansing is not only when you ethnically cleanse people as the Ottomans did, but also through deportations or forcing them to resettle in other areas."

A pretty bold take, Im not so sure I'd go that far myself, but at the very least I'd be pretty surprised if he turned around and "debunked" the Uyghur genocide.


Kevork is actually an expert on Syria, not China. If you're ready and willing to hear the Uyghur genocide narrative debunked listen to Ajit Singh in the final video I posted. Apparently, according to Singh, most of what we're reading in Western media about the situation in Xinjiang traces back to a report by a US NGO that interviewed eight people, and to a German Christian Zionist figure called Adrian Zenz who cites reports from a Uyghur nationalist organization in Turkey. and this information has then been funneled through mainstream sources like the NY Times out into the public conversation. No one as of yet has presented real evidence that anything like a 'Uyghur genocide' is going on, as far as I can tell it's all US letter agency propaganda.

FWIW I do believe there is a crackdown against Islamist terrorism going on in Xingjiang personally but this 'Uyghur genocide' seems to be the State Department pushing false narrative through friendly ngos. This whole thing reeks of Saddam Hussein incubator babies style invasion pretext talk from the CIA. I smelled it in 2002 and I smell it again now.

Actually I've had a look back through this thread and I'm repeating myself. You guys believe what you will.

Putting the semantics side of things aside it seems pretty clear the Chinese gov is pushing hard for cultural conformity with harsh repercussions for resistance. No idea what info the MSM is getting from where but in that VICE doc that everyone has seen you get two girls walking around with a camera and they get plenty of evidence for large numbers of Uyghurs being arrested and marched in columns into these large scale detention centres that didnt exist a few years ago. We know in these centres they are pushing for high levels of Mandarin skills and pushing pro-communist anti-Islam messaging despite the overwhelming majority being Muslim. In the West when we conceptualize a terrorist crackdown one would envision some undercover cops monitoring an extremist group for a while, gathering incriminating evidence, and then launching a raid on the few they could pin something on. This is clearly something very distinct from what is happening in Xinjiang. Even if it was actually true though that all those people including the large amounts of women are all terrorists intent on some crazy suicide vest mission, that still wouldnt justify taking their children to state-run propaganda camps. If their intent was actually just stopping terrorism they would do what any normal place would do and give custody of the children to the next available relative, but instead they disappear into a government camp because pretty clearly this is an attempt to attack the Uyghur cultural prominence in Xinjiang.


I agree with that. There has been some kind of crackdown with detentions and 'reeducation' going on in Xinjiang since the terror events of 2014-2016 which I blame on radicalization of the Uyghurs by outside actors. In some ways the situation is similar to the radicalization that took place in Chechnya, a place where moderate forms of Islam had traditionally held sway but with the advent of rich Saudis and other Gulf Arab sources opening Wahhabist madrassas things soon changed in that regard and Russia suddenly had a jihad problem on it's hands. Muslim minority border regions of rival powers are vulnerable and very desirable targets for this US-Gulf initiative and if groups like al Qaeda are the result of it then it's a price people like Hilary Clinton and Madeline Albright are on record as saying is worth paying.
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Luigi
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Postby Luigi » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm

Megaterio Llamas wrote:Final Note.

China and the Uyghurs. Listen to the second half of this video starting at 127:00.


Watching the video now, so far they are just attacking sources, source A is linked to a pro-U.S. thinktank, source B is anti-Semitic(source B is also exiled Uyghurs but focus on the anti-Semitic part), etc. Okay now a rant about how this narrative only works because Asians have been dehumanized and we live in a racist imperial culture, great.
Cites state department lawyers who say there isnt enough evidence to prove genocide. They only show the title but I pulled it up on google and I can see why, here is the first half of the first paragraph:
"The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide..."
So its a semantics issue with the word genocide but otherwise concludes that the persecution is happening.
Rants about how people only think its bad because its trendy and we are racist to Chinese people apparently.
In a brief side note he says "the issues in Xinjiang are of course incredibly complicated" well thats interesting hopefully they discuss these complicating factors at some point. Oh, never mind he jumped right back to complaining about racism.
Starts talking about how the U.S. is secretly using the forced labor narrative so that they can impoverish Uyghurs to make them rebel against China. For guys that talk so much about sources they love to throw this accusation around with no citation.
Rant about how Gaza has it worse so we should focus on that. Not like the Israel-Palestine issue has had an enormous cultural prominence in the West for decades or anything.
Segment about Uyghur terrorists fighting around the world.
International Uyghur association is friends with some republican politicians who voted for pro-gun legislation and is racist. I guess the relevance is guilt by association?
Kind of an interesting segment where they talk about how during the Chinese civil war in WW2 the Uyghurs had supported Taiwan/nationalists and many fled to America and are still mad about that. They then go on to spin it that this means theyre not just a peaceful human rights movement because of this. If they think that these old political motives are the main motives of Uyghur-Americans and not human rights concerns they should articulate why, but instead they take it as granted and jump to the next point.
Now long tangents about unrelated stuff, including how people who criticize them are White supremacists for going after then on China issues more than ...European issues I guess?
They say they will wrap up soon but then launch into another rant about the racist dehumanization of China.
I've watched over an hour of it at this point and the only things they have done are attack sources typically without articulating how exactly it relates to their claims, and then complained about White supremacy and racism.

If I was being uncharitable I would interpret them as simply dismissing all concerns about human rights abuses against Uyghurs on the grounds that they dont like the people providing some select pieces of data. A kind of argumentum ad hominem that selectively focuses on whats convenient.

But to give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they are all just hardliners when it comes to the definition of genocide and are simply focusing on how semantically it doesnt meet the definition for them and they all just forgot the part where they should discuss how there can still be massive human rights abuses despite that. I think at the very least Ajit Singh falls into this 2nd category, because he did mention for the brief moment that he found the Xinjiang situation very complicated. You would think though that that would be a good focus to have for a video call, its a real shame instead you get this slant where everything is about trying to debunk or discredit the idea. I get that its nice to have a counterbalance to the MSM cycle but they could really use some nuance.
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