so what Makes USA "the BEST Country in the World"?

[Masato]

Can you elaborate on how you see the zealots as having a revisionist history?

An example would be the claim that American founding fathers were Christian in the same way the term is used today. Many zealots today try to position their beliefs as being identical to what the founding fathers believed.

The truth is that the founding fathers had a plurality of beliefs even amongst the so-called Christians.

For example several of them thought Christianity was a decent moral system, but they didn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus, miracles, salvation, etc. In fact, John Adams (as a Unitarian) found major problems the evangelical or Calvinist branches of the faith.

https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 03-02-3058

Badass post. Cool find, I am copy-pasting here in case the link goes down.

[spoiler]

From John Adams to John Quincy Adams, 28 March 1816
Quincy March 28 1816My dear Son
Your favours of 5. and 8th of Jan. are recd. and thankfully recd and read with inexpressible delight,—Notwithstanding your Calvinism.!!! For We Unitarians, One of whom I have had the Honour to be, for more than Sixty Years; do not indulge our Malignity in profane Cursing and Swearing, against you Calvinists; one of whom I know not how long you have been. You and I, once Saw Calvin and Arius, on the Plafond of the Cathedral of St. John the Second in Spain roasting in the Flames of Hell. We Unitarians do not delight in thinking that Plato and Cicero, Tacitus Quintilian Plyny and even Diderot, are Sweltering under the Scalding drops of divine Vengeance, for all Eternity.

You have hazarded your Sight by reading Search the first; I have almost Sacrificed mine in reading Search the Second. I have read nine Volumes, am now reading the Tenth and the Eleventh lies before me, of the “Correspondance Litteraire Philosophique, critique &c of the Baron de Grimm. I am told there are Sixteen Volumes. I wish to know the Price, of the whole Work. and if it is not extravagant, to have it purchased for me. It is the best Account of the Rise and progress of the French Revolution and the best Apology for Your Fathers Opinion of it, and his Conduct relative to it, that has yet appeared. His Materialism and his Fatalism I despize as much as I do that of Tacitus Quintilian Pliny Priestly or Diderot; or of Ocellus or Timæus: but his Character of the French Nation and of every thing I Saw, heard or read in France is correct and exact.

I am reading also another Work in four Volumes in 12o. Histoire Generale, de la Naissance et des Progres de la <, Start deletion,naissance, End,> Compagnie De Jesus, et l’analyse de Ses Constitutions et Préviledges ou il es prouvé, 1. Que les Jesuites ne sont pas reçus de droit Specialment en France; et que quand ils le seroient, ils Le sont pas tolerables. 2. Que, par la nature même de leur Institut, ils ne sont pas recevables dans un Etat police. A. Amsterdam. 1761.

Can you inform me who was the Author of this Work.? He appears to have been a Catholick; for the Catholicks hated, in general, the Jesuits as much as the Jesuits, Supported by Popes and Kings, despised insulted cheated and pillaged them. 2dly. Can you inform me whether this Work has been translated into English? If it has, I wish to have it, at any rate. I have it in French: but I want it should be read in this Country.

We do not expect to be “Saved” or damned for Unitarianism, or any other Philosophical or metaphiscal or Theological opinions; but by Sincerity Candour Charity Benevolence and Beneficence: or their Contraries.

You may cry, “Mercy” but to judge of your Athanatian Creed you must read the Acta Sanctorum of the Bollandists. You must write an honest ecclesiastical History. Voltaire or Gibbon ought to have written it; but they dared not.

What do you call “The Bible”? The Translation by King James the first? More than half a Catholick.?

When you have read “Search” you must become yourself a Search, before you proclaim to the World; before you pledge yourself; before you Settle any opinion of the first Philosophy and the true Theology.

An incarnate God!!! An eternal, Self existent, omnipotent omnipresent omnicient Author of this Stupendous Universe, Suffering on a Cross!!! My Soul Starts with horror, at the Idea, and it has Stupified the Christian World. It has been the Source of almost all the Corruptions of Christianity.

I have in my Office two Volumes of Institutes of Cannon Law, which I purchased and read fifty Years ago in Part, i.e. in 1766. If you or my dear George was here I would Send for it and quote it. But now I must quote it from Memory. “Whoever is not within the Pale of the Catholick, Apostolic and Roman Church Proculdubio, etermæ damnationis fluctibus Obruetur. I was not Scared by this dreadful denunciation. I laughed at it as heartily as I did at the Remonstrance of the Catholic Bishops and Priests to the King of the Netherlands made this or last Year in which this Sacred Cannon Law was appealed to as infallible.

“The Bible a Rule of Faith.”! What Bible? King James’s? The Hebrew? The Septuagint,? The Vulgate? The Bibles now translated or translating into Chinese, Indian, Negro and all the other Languages of Europe Asia and Affrica? Which of the thirty thousand Variantia are the Rule of Faith?

Your Anecdotes of your Friend Brzozowsky, General of The Jesuits, are really curious. If you have forgotten Pascals Provincial Letters, read them again. But especcially read The History I have just now requested you to buy. Read the History of the Count D’Aranda and Count Olavides. read D’Argens, read the Butte of the Pope abollishing the Order and the Arrets by which they were banished from all the States of those Bourbons who are now reviving them for any Thing I know.

I believe you was in as little danger of Conversion to Transubstantiation as I was when a Jesuit was taking that Picture which has represent’d me like an Old Woman throughout the U.S. In a dark cold Closet in cold Weather, he was preaching to me on that Text “This is my Body,” all the time I was Sitting Speechless as a Statue.

Your Reflections on the State of Things are profound as well as elegant, I can add nothing to them, nor Substracst any Thing from them. I dread no War.

I like how he spells Catholick with a ck

Super interesting. I never much understood the fervent differences between the various protestant brands, Unitarian vs Calvinism etc They are all basically the same shit but yet they separated so distinctly. In Canada we have historic churches in almost every town, on one corner is this brand of Protestantism, on the other corner is another, lol. I always imagine which townsfolk would go to one, and which would go to the other, and would they sneer each other on their ways to church lol or gossip about the other behind their walls?

Seems so silly to me, why squabble over such tiny differences, when the basic message imho should be the same?

Interesting he claims that Catholics and Jesuits hated each other (..?)

I agree with him about the many translations of the Bible, and how each one may end up teaching different religions due to translation variety

I didn't realize that Christianity was (supposed to be?) such a big part of American History. From the little I've seen about the founding fathers etc, I don't remember seeing many crosses or religious imagery.

For me the whole things always appeared to me to be mostly Freemasonic

[salsero]

Christianity was part of American history in the sense that it was part of the cultural framework of many people. However, it was not a part of the Country's political structure. There's a reason that the US Constitution doesn't reference Christianity or any specific religion (or even God, for that matter) other than affording the freedom of religion. It also specifically bans the passing of "religious tests"or belonging to a particular faith as a prereq to holding political office.

As I mentioned, there were many different strains of Christianity even during revolutionary America, and they certainly did not all believe the same. Many of those strains would not be well-received by the church of today given they didn't accept the divinity of Jesus, the claim of original sin, etc. I think a fair reading of primary historical sources demonstrates that while there were some "devout" founding fathers, most of them were not zealots and even had antagonist relationships to what most of us today consider Christianity.

Unfortunately, some national myths developed here in the States which claimed otherwise. To speak the truth about the history of the Founding Fathers and their faith (or lack thereof) was often deemed by zealots as demonic, heretical, or an attack by Satan to "remove God from this country." Interestingly, you do have a few within the Christian space who are taking a more balanced approach to history.

Below is an excerpt from a summary (from a well-known Christian Uni) does a fair job of describing things:

It is inaccurate and misleading to lump all of the Founders into one of those two camps. That creates a false dichotomy. If one demonstrates that someone was not a deist, that does not necessarily mean that he was a Christian – and vice versa. In reality, a number of the key American Founders were neither Christians nor deists, but theistic rationalists. Theistic rationalists believed in a powerful, rational, and benevolent creator God who was present and active in human affairs. They believed that the main factor in serving God was living a good and moral life, that promoting morality was the central value and purpose of religion, and that religion was indispensable to society because it engendered morality. They believed that virtually all religions fulfilled that purpose – not just Christianity. That is why they allowed freedom of religion. Theistic rationalists rejected most of the fundamental doctrines of biblical Christianity, including: the deity of Christ, the Trinity, original sin, the atoning work of Christ, justification by faith, eternal punishment for sin, and the inspiration of Scripture.

Source: https://www.masters.edu/master_tmu_news ... g-fathers/

[salsero]

For me the whole things always appeared to me to be mostly Freemasonic

Yep! Here are some snippets from a discussion of Freemasonry from the George Washington national library:

Freemasonry is fundamentally a self-improvement, volunteer association that teaches moral, intellectual, and spiritual lessons through three initiation ceremonies. Freemasonry’s three degree are modeled after a craftsman’s progress: Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason. Freemasonry was, and remains, open to all men of good reputation who profess a belief in Deity (referred to in lodge as The Supreme Architect of the Universe). By the 1750s a variety of Christian and non-Christians, European, and non-European men, and a few women, were members.

***

Although American elites initially joined the Freemasons to keep pace with genteel English behavior, the fraternity contributed to the spread of the ideas and ideals behind the American Revolution. During the revolutionary era, Masons of note included George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, James Otis, and Paul Revere. While individual Freemasons actively participated in the American Revolution, Freemasonry, as an institution as well as its local lodges, remained politically neutral.

***

Source: https://www.mountvernon.org/library/dig ... %20neutral.

[theraskal]

I do believe that American Cuisine is under-rated by the Food Snobs and is one of the unfair attacks against USA. The Hamburger may be the NUMBER ONE KING OF CUISINE food item in all the World. I once heard/read that the most popular food/drink among the racers of the Tour De France was a CokeCola and a Hamburger!

[Som-Pong]

Americans are fat do-nothing cunts